Accelerating growth through partner diversification

Canned Intro [00:00:01] Welcome to The Partnership Economy. This podcast explores the power of partnerships through candid conversations with industry leaders. Join our hosts Dave Yovanno CEO, and Todd Crawford, co-founder of Impact.com, as they unpack the future of partnership as a lever for scale and an opportunity to put the consumer first.

Todd Crawford [00:00:23] Welcome back to The Partnership Economy podcast. I’m your host Todd Crawford. And this week we’ve got a great conversation lined up with Inez Miedema, CEO and co-founder at Growth HQ based out of the UK. At Growth HQ, Inez is focused on the strategic direction of the business and support of her team, including nurturing existing client success and acquiring new customers. With over a decade of experience and relationships in the affiliate and partnerships industry, Inez built the largest partnership channel at WISE, generating up to 20 percent of their global business growth, and used her passion and insight to start Growth HQ during the pandemic. Outside of growing business, as well as being a mom, traveling and putting her ability to speak six different languages, you know, that’s thrilled to share her learnings. And today we’ll explore the importance of acquiring new and diverse partnerships, this channels siloed depiction, the limitless value partnerships in the digital age. I hope you enjoy. Welcome Inez to the podcast. It’s great to have you. I have really been looking forward to our conversation.

Inez Miedema [00:01:39] Thank you. I’m excited to be here.

Todd Crawford [00:01:40] Yeah. So let’s kick things off. I think it’s always nice to kind of get a perspective of who you are and where you’re coming from. So let’s start first with Growth HQ. What was the impetus for starting Growth HQ and what is it?

Inez Miedema [00:01:55] So Growth HQ is an affiliate and partnerships agency and we work with a very diverse portfolio of clients, mainly D2C e-commerce and fintech. And what we’re doing is we’re driving incremental growth by activating new partners, but also nurturing existing publishers. You asked why we started the business, and it’s a lockdown story. I was CMO at a fintech at the time, the most expensive employee and therefore furloughed before the rest of the team was furloughed. And I started to pick up consulting work and I kept hearing this continuous concern of the leadership teams and peers really who are trying to unlock a new, sustainable and scalable marketing channel. So most of their budgets, I’d say often 80 percent would go into the Meta universe and into Google and TikTok. And all of them were saying it’s getting more competitive, it’s very expensive. What else is there? And I would put affiliate marketing on the calendar or on the agenda because that was my background. I worked for years in very fast growing startups and set up partnership channels and scaled them. And I went on to the next venture and I kept hearing getting the same feedback. Oh, but affiliate marketing, isn’t that the kind of very low cost, cheap conversion channel? And I then had to correct them or educate about affiliate marketing and partnerships. I mentioned that many of the businesses I was part of it was driving up to 30 or 40 percent of the growth at a very cost efficient CPA often. So they had that part but not the scale. So that’s when I thought, “Hey, the consulting within marketing is fun, it’s interesting, but it’s not where my passion lies and my passion lies with driving true incremental growth.” So yeah, before I knew it, I started taking on affiliate clients and was doing affiliate marketing again. So long story short, Growth HQ was born and three years down the line where we’re doing, we’re doing pretty well and we’re all still excited. That’s important.

Todd Crawford [00:04:10] It’s heart warming that I hear consistently how people find the affiliate or partnerships space. They just feel drawn to it and they feel like it’s their thing, right? I got the comment on a comment that I made on a somebody else’s podcast where I said they’re like a coin operated machine. You just put money in and hope to get more money out than you put in. Someone took offense to that, that it’s not gambling and I don’t see it as gambling, but I see it as very impersonal. I think that’s what draws us out of this industry, is that you almost always have to talk to somebody or connect with somebody to make things work, right? And so that’s something I really love about this industry. And it feels like once people are in it and they leave or do more than that, they get some eventually drawn back in.

Inez Miedema [00:05:02] I relate to that. And I think the way I’ve seen the digital marketing teams are performance market teams develop that, I led or that peers of mine were building. It was you have very data driven individuals that love looking at spreadsheets day in, day out, and for them a paid social channel, paid surge, google ads is exciting, right? I’m data driven, but I love getting to a conclusion quite quickly. So I love a beautiful spreadsheet and I like building them. I like pivoting data, but ultimately I want to do something with it and I want to get the conclusion quick and be able to see the impact of my work. And I think there’s those two types of growth marketeers. And to be frank, I think in a lot of businesses there’s not necessarily that space for 40 affiliate channel yet. And I like seeing that. Like all the people that we’ve hired right now, a team of over ten individuals, there’s just something about communicating with people and making those relationships that I think drives all of us or like at least people who are very happy and excited about being in the affiliate industry.

Todd Crawford [00:06:10] And I think the other thing I really like about the industry is a lot of people have played different roles over their careers, so they’ve worked on the publisher side and they’ve worked on the brand side. They’ve maybe worked at a network or an agency, and so they have the perspective of the person they’re interacting with a lot of times. There are so many opportunities in this industry, in so many places that you can be and drive value.

Inez Miedema [00:06:35] It’s true, but I guess I’ve always been the odd one out. And the reason was that I worked at fintech businesses and TransferWise or now Wise was a huge part of my career. I joined them when there were less than 100 employees and stayed with them until five years down the line. There were 2.5k employees. There were 12 offices globally. And because fintech was a very new industry, now I feel like we all have multiple finance apps on our phone. But back then everyone was only banking with our banks and there’s been so much revolution in that industry and I couldn’t rely or lean on traditional affiliates. And that was why I had to, with my team venture out of the then traditional space and look into SEO optimized affiliates and look into closing deals with media houses. And I started pulling in all these nontraditional at the time affiliate opportunities into my realm because I was adamant that we had to drive growth and we had to do it in a certain way and no one was going to find out about this money transfer service on a coupon site, frankly. So I was the odd one out in the sense that after an intense period in the retail side where I was in the affiliate industry, I then was removed from it from five years and I just joined the odd event, and then when I came back into it, it was just this wonderful, “Hey, you guys are all here.” And as you say, some have are now working at brands and other one people like myself started agencies and I really see the value now of that network. And I was maybe a bit rebellious in a bit because it didn’t suit the fintech world at the time, but five years over eight years old by now, it’s a much more diverse group of people. It’s not just retail, it’s not just B2C, it’s it’s anyone with mostly online presence that can set up an affiliate program that can set up a partnership program.

Todd Crawford [00:08:30] Yeah, I think this idea or this concept or diversity of partnerships is really important in the industry and it’s really come to fruition in the last, I’d say, ten years. You mentioned TransferWise at the time a lot of those partners didn’t exist and you have to reach out to them and they’re not even looking for you in a sense and to have that channel become meaningful is really the first goal, right? Can you walk me just through some of like how you went about this being like you set up an app. It was made it to be very easy to send money to somebody else and currency, obviously, especially in Europe or the rest of the world outside the U.S..

Inez Miedema [00:09:13] Yeah, I remember the job interview process, which ended up being a six hour conversation with lots of different people at the time at TransferWise, which I get how it goes in lots of startups. It was a big brainstorm, and I love a brainstorm. I love understanding what the problem is, what the challenges are, who are the customers, what problems do they have, what is your product or service solving for them, and where do they find their information? And who always talk about get you your slice of the Google Pie. I think Amazon is the only app I go to straightaway. Spotify is the other one. Anything else, I will type into my browser. Even the brand name or chocolate cookies or whatever I’m looking for new sneakers and I will look at the first few results and I know that the first ones are ads, so I will avoid them. But I often look at best ten pair of sneakers then. I think that was a TransferWise at the time. What I realized is who are the customers that might be expats? So how about working with expat bloggers? They might be buying property abroad. So how about contacting real estate agents that specialize in that? And I remember locking myself not literally, but into a booth and just jumping on a phone with all these different types of potential affiliates. I didn’t call them affiliates. I called them publishers, partners, and I had to explain to them what I would like to do. I had to explain to them what impact is. I had to explain to them how a tracking link works. But in that way, was able to build up a huge portfolio of partners that were driving volume and in the end the affiliate team or affiliate and strategic partnership team, as we called ourself at TransferWise, was the biggest performance team. It was driving the highest amount of volume because we were tapping into to the Google Pie and just getting as many of these search journeys redirected to the TransferWise app, to the TransferWise website. With the added advantage that if you read an article that’s educational about this new service, your customers get to your site educated. They have to trust because they read on a third party side. Oh, I trust. Hey, they are talking my TransferWise. They trust it. So then I should trust it too. And the conversion rate of that channel at the time, but also across our clients is much higher than a lot of the other performance channels, which means that it’s more cost efficient. So that’s how we build the engine at TransferWise. But it’s also what we do for a lot of our clients here at Growth HQ and especially to the fintech lines. One of the main channels at the moment, long form content is YouTube. YouTubers who have, for example, one of our client is an investment app and we recruit YouTubers for them who have this investment audiences that listen to these YouTubers like how to invest. They can’t give financial advice, but they can talk you through the app and why you have a diverse portfolio, etc. and then the brand sponsors that or has links in the description and gives a welcome bonus. And that’s driving I think, 70 percent of their partnership program and maybe 30 percent of the growth of their business.

Todd Crawford [00:12:28] Yeah, I think YouTube is huge. I think it’s typically ranked number two and number three as a search engine. I think it’s Google, TikTok and YouTube are the top three. And when you think about this long form video. There’s so much more information that you can provide. And they the long tail of that content is huge. It’s just perfect for a performance based partnership with link in the description, right? Yeah, it’s amazing how well that performs. And I think the nuance there is just finding and having those conversations, like you said, and I 100 percent agree with you and not using the word affiliate because if you’re not an affiliate or you’re not active, you might know of it a little bit. You’re not really doing it. It can cloud the conversation where if you say, this is our business, we love your content, we think it’s aligned, we have a way of partnering with you. We have a tracking solution and it and a payment solution, and we can get you set up and start working together. Right? It’s a simpler conversation and saying, I’m calling because I want you to become my affiliate. It doesn’t get the conversation started on the right foot. They might say, Oh, you mean you want me to be your affiliate? Well, yeah, we want you to be a part of our partnership program, right, or strategic partnerships or something like that. I think it just resonates better and starts the program or the partnership off on the best foot.

Inez Miedema [00:13:53] Definitely. I’ve seen the bad reputation that the word affiliate has, and for a long time I personally was on a mission to change it. Just a bad rep the word had, but it’s obviously much easier to use a different word. So I started like googling synonym, affiliate and partnership is the top word. What you’re saying is I think another association that people have with the word affiliate is that it’s all performance based, right? So we only pay if there’s a sale where we only pay if there’s a click. Whereas I had a look, I was working with my account director at a new client pitch for a big D2C e-commerce brand in the States. And we had a look at all of our D2C e-commerce brands and how much they actually spend on commission and how much they spend on upfront fees. And our more mature programs that have scaled very rapidly over the last few years are spending about 60 to 70 percent in upfront fees. And they do this to unlock these opportunities really fast, because if you’re trying to get into a listicle best ten pairs of socks in Bombas’ case, one of our clients. By just sending them your one pager, you might be adopted into a Bombas is a very well known brand, but how about if you’re one of Bombas its competitors and you offer them 5K. You are more likely than not to be listed even had a Bombas. The important thing here, when we talk to our clients and prospective clients or people in the industry is saying it doesn’t matter how you pay these partners, it just matters that you forecast it out. If you model out what you think the cost of acquisition or the CPA, whatever your KPI is, your efficiency KPI is, you just need to work it back to them. So what we do often is we get all these proposals, but we asked for stats we would never, ever get one of our clients just pay, say, 100 grand for an influencer’s video. If we don’t understand how many views that might get on average or what their engagement rates is, or how many what their audience is like. So affiliate marketing partnership marketing has become much more data driven, at least what I’ve seen. And it had to be because you can get away with going to a leadership team and saying, “Oh, I want to invest 500,000 dollars in this influencer campaign for affiliates without presenting them the stats.” So that that’s something like a change of scene in the affiliate world. And something that’s very important is that brands are open to take a little bit more risk than they might have been used to, but that’s the only way to unlock growth fast. You can get there maybe over 20 years if you’re just going on a commission basis and really try to do work the PR angle. But you can’t get there in three or four years, which is what you want to do as a fast growing brand.

Todd Crawford [00:16:43] I’m so glad you brought this up because I’ve been on my soapbox about this performance marketing channel just stuck because it’s been sold internally. You only pay when you get results. It’s efficient. It can drive significant revenue. And now you want to break out of that box a little and people are like, “No, you sold us this box. Stay in the box. That’s the promise. We’re sticking with it.” And I think they’re missing a lot of opportunities and we’ve recently added the capability with our Impact.com creator solution to manage creators on our platform. And historically, people think of I call them more influencers, the larger creators that do want to be paid per post, and mainly because they have so many followers that somebody is going to pay them that much and they are only going to do so many posts. So you either want in or not. But when you find those mid and long tail creators, I think, have a better connection to their followers and more credibility. They’re creating content. And so this idea of having to pay for that work, I mean, they’re not just snapping their fingers or they have this creative already made and they’re just looking to monetize it. Right? That there has to be something you’re willing to pay for that. But the beauty of our channel is that you can do a hybrid. So I can maybe go to a YouTuber, go, I love your content. I would love to work with you. Perhaps I will fund the content creation or some of it, but with additional revenue share opportunity. We’re calling it post plus when you work with creators, right? So paying per post but I’m also giving you the opportunity to earn a revenue share. It kind of puts some skin in the game for that partner because of the long tail opportunity. And I think that to me is something that people are on the brand side struggling because they don’t always have that discretionary budget. And on the creator side it’s like, but I always wanted to be a creator and just get paid loads of money for creating content. And that long tail doesn’t click until they start to see the numbers come through. So that brings me to when you’re talking with clients, what are some of the most common challenges you see across clients, whether it’s internal struggles or the channel itself?

Inez Miedema [00:19:09] Yeah, we spoke a bit about it already. Just now it’s affiliates has been pushed in a box, right? So we thought we had the golden formula. We thought, “Oh, you know what we’re going to do? We’re going to jump on these pitch decks and we’re going to put the full funnel of affiliate marketing there.” So your top your awareness, your consideration in the bottom, and it’s going to land. We’re just going to say we’re a full funnel agency. But what we realized is if someone has a preconception of what affiliate marketing is and has a two minutes to convince them or get their interest, full funnel agency, full funnel partnership marketing doesn’t mean anything to them. So we have to take them on that journey. We have to explain and we have to give examples, right? So we’ve realized we can’t pitch for a new client in two minutes. Lesson learned. Luckily, they often give us 20 minutes or 30 minutes, so you know, we will get there. But that image, that visualization which we have on the homepage of our website as well, that top of the funnel and then categorizing who the types of partnerships already are. So like influencer marketing or employee benefits or media houses and then the middle of the funnel, other you have review sites or you have listicles or and then you have the bottom of the funnel, which I for a long time my career have pushed back very much against the cashback and the coupon sides. Every single brand should be investing in affiliate marketing as one of their top channels like it should not just be Google, Facebook or Meta and then a lots of long tail channels. So how do we get there is educating people is like you have to take people out of just the performance focused commission only bottom of funnel activity. You have to show them what else you can do.

Todd Crawford [00:20:50] I think again, in the last five to 10 years in particular, this channel is starting to get the attention of the c-suite in a way that, yeah, we have an affiliate program. It’s just I think if you have too much of one thing, people begin to question it and it puts it at risk. It’s not diversified enough to have a really well-rounded, diversified channel. It’s hard to say we don’t value it at the same level as if it’s just one thing. And I think that’s important. And if you’re not constantly adding new partners and trying to diversify, the program to me becomes at risk because all it takes is a CMO or somebody to come in and go. This is not exciting. We don’t need these types of affiliates. It just it’s just a bunch of coupon sites. It puts their business at risk as well.

Inez Miedema [00:21:41] Definitely. You’re right. And it’s that diversification. That’s the hard work, right? So when we look at the average program that we run for 12 months, we’re looking at adding about a thousand leads to a prospect pipeline. So that’s not a thousand deals. But if you close 10 percent of that’s 100 new partners that drive revenue every single year. So there has to be a focus on diversifying the types of partners you work with and the number of partners to work with and what you do with those partners. And many of the businesses we work with at Growth HQ are fast growth businesses, and their number one goal is new user revenue. A huge part of why you need to diversify is you need to get in front of different people. So one of our brands, Pair Eyewear, they’re a U.S. brand and you can buy one pair of glasses and then you click a new front on the glasses. So they came to us and they picture those, okay, our average customer is so-and-so female, these ages, this income group, perfect. And then eventually they were like, okay, we’re seeing that 90 percent of the user acquire is female and cool, right? Let’s acquire like the male audience or let’s acquire children. Or do you have the frames? Yeah. We’re working on a wide fit frame. Perfect. Let’s work together and engage all of the publishers that we work with already and that are very happily posting about your brand and tell them about this product launch. And you’re then using your affiliate program as like almost a PR exercise. And that’s all almost always just purely on a commission basis. And so it’s also engaging and feeding these publishers new information. And we had a talk at Growth HQ, we did a growth sessions and we had an external PR person come in. And one thing that he said is because newspapers don’t have the budgets anymore to invest in many journalists, the few journalists there are have to do a lot more work, have to write a lot more content. So how that’s changed the PR industry is that we feed them content, so we just give them the content and they rewrite it. And I think that’s what is very successful with an affiliate marketing as well, because if there’s five eyewear brands reaching out, but one of them reaches out with this perfect one pager with beautiful images attached or uploaded into the impact platform, right, with a few words. So it’s almost like our jobs becoming a little bit that of a PR person because you’re representing the brand and you want to get new content out there. So there’s like you mentioned the word diversification. There’s so many ways to diversify.

Todd Crawford [00:24:12] If you look at just historically how most brands grow their affiliate program, they’re in a network and most networks are one sided, meaning affiliates apply to you either through your website, joined our affiliate program in the footer of your site or through a network. There’s a directory of all the programs that the affiliates can look through and search and they can apply. And a couple of things when we look at that data. Processing applications is for a lot of brands, the last thing they want to take time to do, it seems. And so they end up building of a big queue and going in actually finding prospects and trying to recruit them. I feel like sometimes there’s not the skill set of the team always. They’re more of a nurturing and working with existing partners personality type. But what we noticed is that most brands and I’m just painting in broad strokes because I don’t have the numbers in front of me. But these aren’t going to be far off. You get 90 percent of your partners through passive applications. And the activation of those partners, their productivity rate is like single digit. Conversely, you can get maybe 10 or 20 percent of your partners through proactive recruitment. Any active rate is in the 80 percent range, meaning that that work pays off. And I think brands don’t really know that.

Inez Miedema [00:25:44] Yeah, 100 percent. And why? Because it takes time. And if you don’t believe in the affiliate channel, you won’t invest a time or to resource in it. Right? Like at TransferWise, as I said, we were like 15 to 20 people. Many of them didn’t have an affiliate background. Lots of deal closes. Lots of business people wanted to jump on a phone and close a deal. That costs money. Right? But you’re absolutely right. Investing time in in proactively acquiring diversifying your partner base is key. Like, without that, your partnership program is going to take time over time, just churn partners. And even if you passively acquire some, as you say that the rate will be did an audit for potential client literally yesterday and we always look at what should total publisher base and what’s the click active conversion rate what’s the amount of revenue active. And I think the partner to revenue active rate was 11 percent. I was like, “Oh, that means that 89 percent of the partners in your program are just there as space fillers. What are we going to do with those and can we activate them if not use or lose, boot them off the program. They’re not the right fit and make space for new people. And think about it from a perspective of who are the people that who are the publishers that are actually driving value and can we find 10 more of those?

Todd Crawford [00:27:01] I think the biggest challenge is just the CRM around this. If you have a couple hundred unapproved applications, you have a couple hundred unproductive or inactive affiliates in your program. Just emailing them once is not enough. It’s like emailing a customer that you’ve got a trigger that says, “Hey, they haven’t bought from us in six months or nine months. We want to reengage them.” It’s a series of emails that are triggered now. If they get reengaged after the first or second email that they don’t get the second or third email that the machine knows to stop. And I think it’s important to have a tool like that. When you’re trying to reengage or recruit, you need that CRM, that kind of drip campaign or triggers based on, Hey, I had a productive partner and now they’re not. I need that. I don’t want to run a report and figure out a month later that I’ve got a publisher that’s not productive for a month and that maybe I should send an email and I’m going to write one email to them and I have no way of following up or remembering to do anything. So I think there’s a lot of lack of efficiency in this industry when it comes to how do I figure all of this out and make it work behind the scenes, set it up and then the machine knows what to do based on the triggers and things that you have built.

Inez Miedema [00:28:25] It’s that constant engagement then. And that constant engagement isn’t hard or isn’t an afterthought for your top 20 publishers, right, with those you’re talking day to day. And affiliate marketing or partnership programs do often have that 80/20 rule. Many people have spoken about this. Eighty percent of your revenue or results are driven by 20 percent of your partners or some people pull the 90/10 rule. But the long tail is so incredibly important because of something you mentioned earlier. We’re often talking agency wise as well. There’s people have asked me what’s the ambition for growth? And I was like, “What do you mean about how many employees?” I was like, “As few as possible.” Because if we can use tech in order to streamline processes, for example, prospecting, finding affiliates, if you have a really solid CRM where you can just filter based on the industry customer type currency like, whichever the values are important to your client, you can pump out a prospect list for that new client. Your team can jump on calls with these publishers and close deals, and that’s a very quick way, an efficient way. But with this, how do you use tech? And you don’t have to build everything in-house, luckily. And that’s why I’m always excited when clients come to us and go, “Oh, we’ve been on network so-and-so for years.” But we want to have a cheaper solution they often say actually. And then I go, “How about a better solution?”

Todd Crawford [00:29:50] Yeah, I do hear you when you say, it really hopes to pay less and either have the same or even get more, and that just the math really doesn’t work out in reality. And how rewarding would it be if you took over a channel or you’ve been running a channel for years and then you lean in, you take a different approach and like you said, it grows to become 30 percent of the revenue driven to the company because you suddenly said, “Look, I’m not going to wash, rinse, repeat here. I’m going to shake things up. I’m going to figure out how to go through all my inactive publishers. I’m going to lean in on some of my mid tail that I really just let them be on autopilot and I’m going to be more aggressive in recruiting and staying on top of it to make sure that they don’t just sign up, but they become active, click active and later revenue active.” Because again, at the end of the day the less the channel contributes, the flatter the gross and the less diversified the partnerships, I say the more risk at risk that channel is from scrutiny. At the very least, it’s underappreciated.

Inez Miedema [00:30:59] Yeah. And I think that word equals affiliate marketing. It’s underappreciated. And I’ve been in the industry now for over a decade, and not very much has changed in that respect. Like, I don’t know anyone, any founder, any CMO who wouldn’t want to diversify away from paid search and paid social. All of them are saying we’re investing 70 percent of our budget in at minimum, like probably 90 a lot of times. What else can we do? I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t want to diversify. And essentially the way I see it is partnership marketing is just a huge other marketplace called the Internet. If you talk about digital, there’s will be, say, offline as well. But the digital space, it’s just another marketplace is just not as straightforward as potentially buying ads on Facebook because that’s just one marketplace or a couple of platforms it’s you working with up to infinite amount of partners, of course, but you might be working with 200, 300, 400 partners. But it is it’s another marketplace and you need to prove that it’s going to sound like a cheerleader for the affiliate industry, or maybe I am a cheerleader for the affiliate, then you need to drink the Kool-Aid. I always say that TransferWise, are we need to stop drinking Kool-Aid. It was like we are all drinking the Kool-Aid. We all believe in what we’re doing. We’re all excited about it because I want to convince my leadership team that affiliates and partnership is something to invest in. Use those connections and use those very experienced platforms to to get the case studies in front of your in front of your bosses or your leadership team.

Todd Crawford [00:32:40] Yup, yup. That’s exactly right. I think it really it grows the industry as you grow your individual program and your career, you’re growing the industry, you’re contributing and you’re growing those partners revenue and you’re creating relationships that you can carry to the next role or the next company that you work for. A lot of great stuff that we unpacked here. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts. It’s always fun to hear everybody’s perspective on this industry, and I loved yours. So, again, thanks so much.

Inez Miedema [00:33:15] Thank you.

Todd Crawford [00:33:18] Our industry is still maturing with the amount of data we now have access to. We are able to help bridge the gap of understanding for brand leaders. The Partnerships channel is not necessarily solely performance based, nor does success come from a set it and forget it strategy. As your business grows, it’s critical to also think about acquiring new partners and diversifying the partners existing in your program to keep audiences fresh and engaged. There were a ton of helpful insights shared by Inez in this episode. I appreciate her sharing her knowledge. Thanks for listening and I look forward to next time.

Canned Intro [00:33:52] Thanks for listening to the Partnership Economy brought to you by Impact.com. If you enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts.