Creating a Category with Merry people

Jerrid Grimm (03:43.426)

James, welcome to the show.

James Smith (03:45.025)

Thanks, Jerrid to be here.

Jerrid Grimm (03:46.627)

Yeah, so you have a wall behind you and there’s about 20 pairs of boots there, all different colors, not the normal background that everybody sees. And if you’re just listening to this right now, I’d love it if you could describe what these boots are, the company that you work for, and then we’ll get into how it all started after that.

James Smith (04:13.269)

Yeah, amazing. Cool. So these are called gumboots that we call them in Australia. So we’ve taken the term and sent it to the US and the UK as well. So think of it as an everyday boot that you know and love. There’s also 100 % waterproof. So it’s sort of a mix between a rain boot and everyday boot and sits. The function and the versatility is pretty wild in that I’ve worn this product in the snow in Whistler. I’ve also worn it in 100 degree heat in Austin, Texas, wear them for 12 hours a day. I take this one boot with me if I’m going around the states for three weeks selling it I wear this one same product. I’m a bit boring so I like the whole rust color that I’ve got right now I wear the same blue jeans and different uni-quotations every day but then this this boot here goes really well with me but obviously as you can see behind me it comes in a range of colors. So I guess the brand itself, Merry people. So hopefully you feel uplifted by hearing the sound merry. It’s really around joy and happiness and adventure. And the product, I guess we see it as, know, it’s an everyday product that you can wear. And it’s really about that takes you on all your adventures and journeys along the way. So whether it’s through walking the dog or doing sideline sports to kids, jumping in puddles, I feel like there’s, it just takes the seriousness out of life and it allows you to sort of just enjoy and be content on the little adventures that you have every day.

Jerrid Grimm (05:40.719)

That’s cool. And I don’t think people normally associate a rain boot or a gum boot, as you call it, with anything fashionable. mean, every, I think every rain boot that I ever knew as a kid or even as I became an adult was the standard like calf, mid calf, black rubber boot. It wasn’t meant to be fashionable. It was meant just to keep water off your feet, essentially. So I’m curious, how, how did Merry people

James Smith (06:04.877)

Fuck the time.

Jerrid Grimm (06:08.066)

get started and go in this direction of mixing together an everyday boot and all these fashionable colors and being able to not just wear them when you’re jumping through puddles as a nine-year-old kid.

James Smith (06:19.339)

Yeah, no.

Great question. yeah, so Danny Pierce, she started the brand back in 2014. So 11 years ago in Melbourne, Australia, she she grew up on a farm. So she wore those those boots that you were talking about high quality, kept your feet what drive but nothing else. And so when she moved to the city, you know, whether it was through, you know, doing rainy commutes with heels or whatever else and you and your shoes being ruined, she was like, there was a gap in the market. She’d then go to festivals and be like, there’s still this gap in the market.

And then she decided that why not I just fill that gap and create a product myself that I know and love and that I would wear and I think is cool. And so that’s really how Merry people was born. I think from our point of view, it’s really interesting to talk about the blue black green. And that’s something that we’ve really found in market research is that brands often like to stay in the safer lane and the blue blacks and greens, but we’ve found our customer base loves color like ink the purples on day one of sales that they they’re the ones that sell the quickest because it’s that dopamine hit. And I think it’s talking to a customer and sort of filling a void in the market around color. so and we really think about, I guess every customer and what they’re looking for. As I mentioned earlier, I’m a bit boring in that I really just like a brown or black that’s fine for me. But as you can see,

Jerrid Grimm (07:14.531)

Hmm.

James Smith (07:38.368)

behind me, my wife is a bit different and she has a lot more colors. And so that’s really what merry people’s always been about the merry aspect color is so important. And it’s really about, I guess, you know, encouraging people to even just step a little bit out of their usual line of comfort, just to give it a go. And I think often they feel this like new energy from the fact that they can dress up with a color and something that they thought they couldn’t do, but then they realized they love it. And then they Golf to the wild ones after that. Highly.

Jerrid Grimm (08:08.31)

Sure. Like have some fun with it, right? It’s it’s you don’t have to take yourself so seriously. I think, you know, this you mentioned based in Australia, people might pick up on the accent. You’re this is funny. We’re recording. It’s Wednesday for me. Wednesday afternoon. It’s Thursday morning. I told my kid this. said, hey, I’m chatting with someone from Australia and it’s tomorrow there. And it like an eight year old to 15 year old, it blows their mind. He even said he’s like, ask, ask them what tomorrow’s like.

And I know it’s just a funny thing living across the world from each other. Um, and, and you call it gumboots. That’s a little bit different. mean, we usually say rain boot. Uh, and I’m, I think Australia is known for fun. Like people are known to have a good time. And I, I’m wondering, cause it started in Australia, but now you, you’ve entered the U S in the last few years and you kind of bringing this.

Like, hey, fun, gumboot culture into the market. So tell me a little bit around when you guys expanded into the US and how that’s going so far.

James Smith (09:18.349)

Yeah, so we started off in 2019 to start 2020 in the US and then sort of probably do things a little bit slower and then probably the last three or four years have really picked up, you know, been over there a lot over the last couple of years really understand the market and the customer to then go, how do we need to position our brand and product. It’s been awesome. You know, we find obviously the Pacific Northwest does really well for us in that it’s a rainier part of the country, but really all pockets and I think it’s been really interesting to travel around like I’ve been to 25 30 states in America, maybe 25. And the but the problem the product really does solve in so many different parts of the country and the use cases are all quite similar. So yeah, really we’ve been it’s going well, I can feel the last 12 months has been awesome in the US. Obviously, it’s been a little chaotic with different things going on. But I feel like we’re really clear on our direction. Now, the gun boots really interesting thing that you mentioned, we initially had it as a rain boot, we felt that that wasn’t really that was underselling what the product truly was because we feel like it’s more than just a rain boot So we really pivoted to focus on the term gum boot and really take that term and go we’re gonna own it because that’s what we think our product is we call them in our home country and It’s felt like it’s been more genuine in the way we’ve gone about it. I felt there’s been a renewed energy And it’s I think initially we were going in being like, don’t know how merry we should be in the American market. And then we’ve just dialed that up a lot recently. And I think that’s really resonated with people and going back to the serious part of life, I think, yeah, Americans particularly as well right now, they’re like, I want to have some fun and joy and, and, you know, all really confident extroverted people often. And so it’s like, it’s been great to really just push the merriness out there and I think talking to the brand, which I know we’ll get to, but that’s really the important essence is that really around the merriness aspect and the joy part.

Jerrid Grimm (11:13.336)

I think it’s cool that you’re taking this wording, right? And just almost like creating a category, a new footwear category. And you get to bring along this name like Gumboot, which is already, I actually looked this up because I was curious why it was called a Gumboot, why it’s called a Gumboot in Australia and the UK more than it is in North America. And I guess it’s because it’s gum rubber was the original reason for it. And so was just, you know, that makes sense. It’s like rubber boot, Gumboot.

But yeah, it’s cool. You’re creating this new category in the US and your role is your general manager at Merry people You said you’ve been to 25 or more states that has to put you in the top 1 % of like there’s Virtually nobody that no American hardly has been to 25 states You should be you should be doing a travel blog while you’re doing this, right?

Tell me about your role, general manager, and how you’re expanding. What inspires you and gets you excited about?

James Smith (12:07.405)

Yeah.

James Smith (12:14.027)

Yeah, I’m say a general manager. So I deal with obviously the growth aspects of the business, but mostly been focusing on the global markets over the last few years. And that’s been to be honest, I couldn’t have asked for more of a dream job really in that being able to grow something from the start and just the momentum when you see it, and you can sort of see it in advance and that happens like the winds, the highs are so high as high as they come. And, and it’s because I think you start off such a low base that really any win you celebrate and then obviously as they still keep coming, but I really try and remind myself to be a bit grounded that and remind yourself wasn’t it was only 12 or 18 months ago where you were just dreaming that these things hopefully would happen in three or four years and yet here they are. So I think that’s been an awesome part of the role. You know, am just meeting and experiencing so much the country’s been awesome to and meeting people and, just like getting to understand the customer. So I come from a finance background, I came in as head of finance initially five years ago and moved into more of a broader commercial role soon after to just that’s what the business needed. It needed someone who was keen to sort of get grow it and first sort of seeing the finance line and that’s been an awesome opportunity. So working on the strategy alongside Danny, the merchandising, so what products where it was it need to go. But yeah, certainly the US and the UK growing them the last few years has certainly been the highlight for me and hopefully some new regions, perhaps in your neck of the woods not too far away.

Jerrid Grimm (13:42.841)

Yeah. Yeah. Come on up to Canada anytime. mean, I’m in Vancouver. have unlimited amount of rain up here and it’s always wet all the time. So, so the practical side of it comes in really nicely there. now you, you’ve been traveling and promoting merry people, you know, all across the States and other parts of the world. You’re only one person. I’m curious how, you know, in this affiliate partnership space, maybe talk to me about how you engage, whether it’s a content site or review sites, maybe creators. How do you look at that? Getting other people to promote the company, the products, new markets.

James Smith (14:27.949)

Yeah, no. So I think affiliates been massive for us in the US, particularly, it represents 12 to 15 % of revenue. And that’s bigger than any other market. Australia is very in its early stages of affiliate, like it’s growing, but it’s certainly not in the same way as the US is very mature in that affiliates been around for many, many years. The I guess the problem that we try and solve in new markets, particularly is around awareness and credibility. So in Australia, we’re a well known brand perhaps a household brand in say Melbourne, most people would know about it, like all the colourful gumboots. So that’s what people would know us for. Obviously in the US that isn’t the case yet, keyword yet, but we really work on the awareness and credibility. And I guess you’ve got your cold Facebook advertising or Instagram advertising or Google, but there’s nothing quite like a trusted source that talks to your product and says, Hey, this is great. In a way that it talks to a customer that you know, might have seen our ads, but then they an ad is an ad, right? You don’t always trust what you see. And particularly, we’ve found that, you know, if you’re Australian brand, they’re like, is it coming from Australia? Will I even get it? You know, is this even a real brand? So I think, you know, having a source that they trust, whether it’s the New York Times, Wirecutter saying, hey, this is the best rain good in the market. That is like you can’t ask for anything more than that. And so that’s what we find that part. The publishers are super important for us in being able to create that awareness piece, the reach, but then also bring that credibility. And then secondly, when it comes to creators, there’s a range of things that we do there. Obviously, we love using their creative content for ads ourselves to help further use that content. Our product is outside.

So for example, the geography is very different. The accents are different. I can’t pull off an American accent even if I tried. So, you know, it’s really about creating relatable content to the customer that we’re trying to talk to. And that’s really done through creators. And as we know, know, meta is a really good example around the creative fatigue that everyone talks about and the velocity of content and how much you need to continue to iterate.

James Smith (16:36.981)

hundreds of creators at your hands, your disposal to use your product and create that content and also talk to their audiences is really the new way that we’re going down the path of to create that sort of grassroots localized feel that we’ve done really well in Australia that we’re trying to replicate here in the US.

Jerrid Grimm (16:53.89)

Yeah, and it’s a unique product. I know it’s high quality product. It isn’t a highly discounted product, right? It doesn’t seem like it goes on sale that often. I don’t know if you can speak to that because that is one lever that you might not be able to pull on is big sales, big discounts, know, get 20 % off on this day. So maybe speak to that pricing strategy, but also the challenge it may show up in.

James Smith (17:24.493)

Yeah, sure. So yeah, as a brand, we never go on sale. So Black Friday’s been we weren’t we were the same price all year round. And we do it for a range of reasons. One is, we don’t want to we don’t want to increase our price unnecessarily to them back to banking the margin of discounting. So we set a lower price all year round. As a result of that to want customers to not have that regret where they’ve bought it at full price and subsequently the following day, they say half price or 20 % off, whatever it might be. And third, we want to be really intent. We want to have intent with every product that we create and bring into the market that we think whatever we’re ordering, we can sell through. And so that’s really the three reasons why we don’t do it. So for 11 years at Merry people’s been around, it’s never gone on sale. And I can guarantee you it never will. So that’s been, I think people find it really refreshing. Obviously, it does bring challenges in times where if your competitors are 20 or 30 % off and you’re at full price, I guess the question you got to ask yourself is why are they picking us and that really goes back down to the brand obviously creating a great quality product, having the exceptional customer experience, but then having a brand that people connect with. So it’s more than just a boot or product. It’s really about the essence and what the brand creates. And that’s, I guess, the key part there.

there is definitely less flexibility as part of not going on sale, particularly from an ordering point of view, which I’m involved in. But also it’s like a means that you’re, I guess, more intent, you’ve got more intent with what you’re doing. And I guess if you’re a second or third guess, a product going to market because of that, which sometimes can be a good thing.

Jerrid Grimm (19:05.55)

Yeah, I actually find it refreshing that it isn’t on sale. There is this thing that happens where if a product is often discounted, it’s very hard to like pull the trigger on the purchase because you always think, oh man, am I really getting the best deal on it? Right? Is it going to go 30 % off next week? Is it 20 %? You’re like checking for coupon codes everywhere. You’re downloading browser extensions. You know, if I like that you’re just straight out stating

We lowered the price as much as we could and kept it like that all of the time. So, you know, it’s been 11 years. We haven’t gone on sale before. We’re not likely to go on sale in the future. We just price it according to what the product is worth. And I bet that also changes your partnership mix a little bit, meaning I imagine you don’t work a lot with the coupon publishers if you’re not going on sale specifically, but maybe it’s possible that you could work with.

James Smith (19:47.98)

Yeah.

Jerrid Grimm (20:01.678)

Like a cash back or a loyalty as well as the content publishers. Does that work? Does the, you know, cash back and loyalty type partners, is that still a fit for someone like Merry people?

James Smith (20:12.289)

Yeah, absolutely. So we use cash back and loyalty partners or across all our regions. So you know, I think the beauty of affiliate marketing is it really touches all stages of the customer journey. So you know, we talked about that awareness and credibility piece early on, where it’s someone that’s discovering it for the first time via a platform that we weren’t a part of and that the affiliate has brought, I guess, the eyeballs to Merry people. And then you’ve got that credibility piece where they’re

I’m not quite sure I like the product, but I’m not quite sure if I should buy it having that trusted source being able to talk to it. And I guess that loyalty and cashback pieces like, okay, we’re not going on sale. I’m not quite I just need a little bit to kick me over the edge around the value for money. And then they have that via either a cashback or redeeming points. So I think yeah, we definitely use them. We don’t go on everything. So I think we like the cashback sites to have a level of elevation in comparison. So it’s not about just like, you know, sell, sell,

It’s definitely there needs to be somewhat curated. But yeah, we’ve worked with a range of different cash back and loyalty partners. We find the credit cards systems really good airlines are great. And then overall, just the cash backs is just that extra kicker.

Jerrid Grimm (21:23.884)

Yeah, that’s cool. You mentioned wire cutter and that you were listed as like one of the best, you know, gumboots, rain boots. Tell me if you can, how does something like that make a difference to the business when you’re entering, especially entering a new market?

James Smith (21:43.086)

Totally what I think just even from the flip side, like when we see these articles and particularly, you know, we wake up in the morning, the US is half the way through their day or whatever and you wake up and you’ve seen a spike and often sometimes it helps being with the time difference. You see things because you’re a bit lagging. You see things as it happens. so in the day to day you sometimes can miss it. And yeah, we’ve seen, you know, wire cutter CNN, range of articles. Anytime that that gets repurposed, they just shoot in traffic or sales and you’re like, it’s not from Facebook, what could it be? And I was like, it’s 100%. It’ll be one of those articles and it always is. So it’s really exciting. You just gotta wait the extra day to find out what source it was, but it’s always gonna be one of them. I think there’s a few things. So think the New York Times is an interesting one where the social proof or I guess the SEO rankings is so high. So for example, you Google, I’m solving a problem. I need some product, call it rain boots or gumboots and I’m typing in and I also want to know what’s the best one, right? And that’s often what people do. We’re pretty simple humans where we just type in like, I need X, what’s the best one in the market? And so I type it into Google and what pops up like a really trusted source, like CNN or New York Times and it’s like, these are your best. And you’re just instantly going, well, that’s all I can pick out of those. You don’t go any wider. You’ve got too many decisions to make in your life. So find it really streamlines the decision-making process and

That’s all free traffic. then obviously the clicks through and then even they don’t subsequently purchase, we can catch them through a remarketing piece through, you know, whatever other ad platform they’re on. So that just touches every stage of the journey. And then we can also, you know, if it’s something that we want to talk to as well, I’ll wear best voted X as well. That also adds further social proof. So it honestly has been a game changer. That New York Times article continues to be, you know, one of our number one revenue drivers over the last five years, it continues to and the content, the beauty of it is never gets old because the problem is always there and people always searching for it. So it’s just, I guess, updating the headline for 2025 and now almost 2026 and yeah.

Jerrid Grimm (23:44.034)

Wow.

Jerrid Grimm (23:56.793)

Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I, I came from more just digital advertising where you’d buy your ads and then once those ads stopped running, it’s not like you’re getting organic reach off of your Facebook ad, right? Like you stopped paying Facebook. That’s the end of that ad. goes away and no one’s using it. The cool thing around affiliate and creator marketing I’ve found is sometimes it’s this gift that keeps on giving. You have to work a little harder. It’s a little less predictable. Like you said, sometimes you wake up in the morning, you see this spike and you gotta wait 24 hours to figure out like, why did that spike happen? You have a gut feel for it, but that can go on for years. You can have these spikes that keep coming and giving back for years. So think that’s a really cool element to partnership marketing. I always find it’s the weakness of a channel can also be a strength. It’s weaknesses, it’s predictability can be somewhat difficult. It’s not like turning on and I’m spend a hundred grand a month and get this return.

But sometimes you don’t need to spend any money and you’re basically getting that return as well.

James Smith (24:56.301)

Yeah, it’s a great way looking at it. It’s definitely the gift that keeps on giving. We’ve definitely said that many times and you write it is a bit sporadic and it’s often when you least expect it to the point that you know when these articles are performing so well where you know we’re in discussions right now going well how do we want to spend our digital budget like do we want to instead of just going these are our sales and this is what’s allocated for spenders like how do we want to dish that up and how do we want to make sure that we’re putting more money towards say these content publishers because we know that there’s a guess an incrementality there’s an incrementality pecking piece there. And there’s longevity piece as well, which I think, you know, as Merry people were a brand, as we’ve already said, never going on sale. And because of that, we’re quite purposeful with what we do. And we’re looking to be here for the long term, because the product market fit will always be there, obviously, the product will evolve. So it’s like really, I guess, investing in partners that you know, that can also continue to be on that long term journey with you to

Jerrid Grimm (25:59.907)

Yeah, maybe talk a little bit more. Let’s dig into that. How you choose the partners that you work with. You’ve mentioned a couple things, making sure, you know, they’re an elevated brand themselves, that they’re well recognized, just so it pairs up and aligns with you guys well. What else is it that you look for in a partner?

James Smith (26:15.393)

Yeah, I think, you we go back to thinking about, what are we, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve? I guess customer and brand are the two most important parts of And so products for three. And so I guess, you know, when we’re thinking about is like, who is our customer? Who does who does she can shoot? Like, who does she rely on or trust from a news source?

which influence or creators does she engage with or resonate with? And then also like working with like different publications from there and then ultimately going, okay, well, this is the person, this is the, I guess the types of partners that they could engage with, let’s go outreach. So we see it that way. And then obviously,

The final step is just ensuring that there’s a level of, guess, consistency to our brand. So the never going on sale piece is obviously quite important. Our values of joy, authenticity, kindness is all really important. And so I guess do they align with our values and our overall messaging of what we’re trying to deliver.

Jerrid Grimm (27:16.962)

Yeah, that’s cool. That makes sense. want them to, I mean, they’re essentially going out there and acting on your behalf towards their audiences. In some ways they’re vouching for you in other ways they’re promoting you. So you want to make sure that they’re a right fit all the way through. Because like you said, it’s, it’s not just the sales that you’re getting. You’re also getting this halo effect of some credibility and some awareness building at the same time. And I know when you, when you buy advertising, you make sure that you’re on the right, you know,

You used to be like on the right TV episode or you were at the right time of day or you’re on the right radio station or in the right newspaper. And I don’t think that changes too much when you’re doing partnership marketing, making sure that they’re the right people are the right content publishers to promote you. And so on the flip side, why would these content publishers, these creators, these more elevated cashback sites, these loyalty companies, why should they work with Merry people?

James Smith (27:53.258)

I’ll actually.

James Smith (28:06.443)

I guess we’re just easy going Australians. I know outside of that, we, you know, we have placement budgets available. So for those who need that upfront investment, we have that as an option for the right partners. And then we also provide a short term commission increases as well to help engage partners early. You know, we obviously it’s a win win if it’s successful. you know, we look to try and invest in that relationship upfront, too. I guess, you know, we’re you know, I think we’re a new exciting brand, newish I guess, being around for five years in the US, but we’re an exciting brand, a bit of a disruptor in that we’re trying to create a new product category that’s really engaging with consumers. So I think in a world where there is so much to talk about, there’s so much news and content, how do you stand out as a publisher, what’s talking about new, cool and different things. And I guess that’s what Merry people is. you we’re not everywhere. So I think having that ability to talk to something and introduce your audience to something that they may not have heard about that could resonate with, will only improve their appeal as well.

Jerrid Grimm (29:12.526)

cool. I’ve actually never thought of it that way where, you know, if I’m a creator or I’m a content site, one of the jobs is for me to bring new ideas, new products to the audience. I mean, that’s, that’s one of the reasons that they’re going to be following me is because maybe I can go out and source stuff that they haven’t seen before. I think it’s a really cool way to look at it. And of course, yeah, having those paid placement budgets, having, you know, competitive commissions.

having a product that seems to be attractive and sell through well and converts well is also really strong. So I think you guys have a, first of all, a great story. You know, the way it started out and even being from Australia and kind of taking over the world from that, having a unique product, even naming it uniquely, unique colors. I think that’s really positive. And then I do like this, you know, bringing joy to the world and, and being, you know, Merry as the name says and leading with kindness. I think it’s an incredible brand. We’re super excited to have you guys as a partner at Impact. And I think if you’re a content publisher, a creator, an elevated cashback site, someone with a loyal audience, make sure you reach out to James and Merry people as it sounds like they’re continuing to expand. So James, I’ve loved having you on the show.

James Smith (30:31.585)

Thanks so much, Jerrid, it’s been great to be here.