Building brand equity through authentic community

Dave Yovanno

Sam, how are you doing today? 

[00:01:46] Sam Kimmel

I’m great. How are you? Good to see you. 

[00:01:49] Dave Yovanno

I’m awesome. Really excited for this conversation, especially when I look back at your career. You’ve had, honestly, one of the most dynamic careers that I’ve seen. You started at an agency called Saatchi & Saatchi, and this was all pre-social, that whole era, and you continued this agency experience at another company called 360i. I know them as a performance marketing agency. What was that world like back then compared to today? Looking back, were there any early lessons from the agency world, especially pre-social, that still shaped the way that you approach partnerships today? 

[00:02:26] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, well, thank you for the compliment. It’s been a fun journey, starting agency side, and then going to the platforms, and then landing where I am now. When I think about my early agency days, I started at Saatchi & Saatchi in 2010, so Instagram, for context, didn’t exist until 2013, so it was an extremely different marketing landscape at the time. 

[00:02:51] Dave Yovanno

So does that mean, is this MySpace? Was that kind of the leading platform, probably? 

[00:02:57] Sam Kimmel

I mean, maybe, but I don’t think that brands were really using MySpace, or at least not the brands I was working with. So it was very much traditional advertising at the time. So I worked on JCPenney, and it was constant TV shoots and constant print, and it really very traditional advertising. Then when I made the move over to 360i, which was in 2013, that was right as social media was launching. And so I was really intrigued by 360i, since they were really one of the first social media first agencies that existed. And my time at 360i was incredible, because we were really kind of like paving the path for brands. So one of kind of accounts that I was initially working on was Estee Lauder, so Clinique and MAC and all of those brands. And we were tasked with actually creating our social accounts. And launching the playbook for them on how they were gonna approach social. And I’m talking about really early days where the initial accounts were in my name. So like I signed up for their accounts, and eventually we had to kind of like call Meta and say, we should transfer this to the like official brand email. But it was very, very early days and really cool to be part of kind of building what social media would look like for brands. 

[00:04:17] Dave Yovanno

Yeah, excellent. So definitely early in that space. So from there, you made the leap into some social media platform experience first with Pinterest and then with TikTok. Two pillars essentially of the social media world, and kind of what started a lot of the sharing that we see today. What were you responsible for exactly in those roles? 

[00:04:38] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, so I had really interesting roles at both Pinterest and TikTok. At Pinterest, I was on the sales side. So I was the entertainment team specifically. So we did entertainment partnerships and that basically meant talking to all the entertainment brands and getting them to create Pinterest accounts, and then working with them on their content and paid media strategy, which was really cool. So I worked on Comcast. I worked on  the NBC properties. I worked on HBO, so many more. And it, that was an interesting time also, because when I started at Pinterest, which was 2018, the landscape was very much still linear television, and then it quickly shifted towards streaming. So my initial conversations with brands were all about tune in and how we’re gonna get people to actually watch a show in somewhat real time. And then by the time I was kind of wrapping up at Pinterest, all the conversations we were having with brands were around acquisition to streaming platforms. So I went from really like upper funnel, kind of like brand storytelling down to acquisition and really having to understand performance advertising from a Pinterest perspective, and what are we doing to make the most effective CPA? And like, what are you doing to make sure that we’re helping drive those conversions for brands once they were really paying attention to that data? And then at TikTok, I had a very different role. So at TikTok, I was on the API partnerships team. So I led the creator API, meaning that I worked with all of the creator platforms like CreatorIQ, Influential, Whalar, etc., to get them integrated into TikTok so that they could get the best data on TikTok’s creators. 

[00:06:23] Dave Yovanno

Got it. Okay, so is it right to assume then that you were primarily measured by based on revenue that you are driving for those companies, both those companies. So different roles, but essentially it was accountability and measurement towards, pretty revenue for those company. Is that accurate? 

[00:06:40] Sam Kimmel

Yes and no. So on the Pinterest side, 100 percent revenue was the priority. It was really about like growing these entertainment brands and driving revenue for Pinterest. At TikTok, the role was, I think a little bit more complicated because in the beginning, we really didn’t have a way to have revenue attribution. The goal was really just to get compliance and to get our partners using the API. And a lot of my job at TikTok was around education. So I spent a lot  of time talking to the leadership teams at all of the big platforms. I got to spend a lot of time talking to a lot of C-suite advertisers, and really help them understand like what works on TikTok, what types of content really resonates and how they should be working with creators. So that was kind of like phase one. And then I would say phase two, as we got better data on, what we were doing with the API, that’s when we started to look and be measured more against the revenue that was coming through the API and through creators on TikTok. 

[00:07:38] Dave Yovanno

Okay, and for both Pinterest and TikTok, I’m assuming the main revenue source was advertising. Can you just talk a little bit about how brands were engaging with those platforms, how they were spending money or investing their marketing dollars into these platforms? What types of formats essentially were they executing through you? 

[00:07:57] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, so there was, I would say like a big shift happened in the time that I was at Pinterest because video became much more important to the platform. So when I first started at Pinterest, it was definitely more of a static first type of experience. So with a lot of the brands we were working with, the content we created was static. And actually just thought of one campaign that I really loved that I worked on at Pinterest. It was with ESPN and they were wanting to drive more women to tune into college football championships and playoff games. So we did a series with a creator who created different recipes so that if women were wanting to create like a hosting moment or have friends and family over to watch the games, we had themed recipes based on the teams that were in the finals or playoff games. So that was, at that time, it was way more of a focus on static. I would say towards the later half of my experience at Pinterest, video was becoming much more popular. And so that was also when a lot of entertainment brands were shifting from tune in to acquisition for streaming. So a lot of the content that we ran was video, and we were seeing really great success with video as the creative that ultimately drove people to sign up for a streaming platform. So got to see a really big shift on the Pinterest side. Obviously on the TikTok side, it’s an entirely video first platform. So from the beginning of my time there to the end, it was very much focused on video. I think the biggest difference I would say, and granted this was many years ago, so a lot has changed since, was that TikTok was so creator first, and specifically the work that I was doing at TikTok was very focused on creators making the video. Whereas on the Pinterest side, it was a lot more polished video or polished static content that was coming from agencies. They were not as deep in the creator space at the time. So I think you saw a difference. It was kind of more like Instagram content, lots of text overlay and different kinds of like visual cues on the pins to make them kind of Pinterest friendly. Whereas TikTok definitely a lot more like organic feeling like authentic creator content. 

[00:10:11] Dave Yovanno

Gotcha, okay. And were these placements essentially, like if somebody is searching on Pinterest for something during the time that you were there, you know, you’ve got pins that are more like organic or SEO sort of content that is served up in a pin thumbnail sort of thing. Would there be like a brand pin, like a sponsor pin next to it or kind of in that next, if you will, that’s kind of related to what people are searching for. And then on the TikTok side, same thing, but in their native format, which would be likely within the feed, for example. So you’re scrolling through, you know, people that you’re following and then you’d come across a brand video. Is that kind of the experience that you were talking about? 

[00:10:48] Sam Kimmel

Well, I think what’s interesting about Pinterest is when you’re just kind of browsing Pinterest, you see multiple pins at one time. So I think that is something that’s really unique to the platform because you’re not just seeing that one pin. Whereas on TikTok, obviously you’re just seeing the one video at a time. So you’re very much in the space of like focusing on that one piece of content, and it’s either gonna be appealing to you or not appealing to you, so you’re either gonna stay on it or you’re gonna swipe to the next. On Pinterest, everything you’re seeing is kind of like in context of other content. So like to the point you’re making, a lot of discovery on Pinterest is really interesting, because even as a brand, like you have, you know, your paid placement, but you don’t necessarily control what you’re showing up next to. Whereas TikTok, like you really are kind of one-to-one where you’re only seeing that one piece of content in the moment, so you’re not necessarily getting like the contextual clues or you know. Different kind of inputs the way you are on Pinterest. 

[00:11:47] Dave Yovanno

But with platforms like Pinterest and TikTok, they’re of enough size where they can kind of create their own native formats. I guess my question in all of that is, did you deal with measurement as a challenge for brands? Like how did they measure the success essentially of the investments that they’re putting into platforms like Pinterest or TikTok, just knowing that a lot of them are kind of like non-standard or more native units. 

[00:12:11] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, that’s a great question. Measurement, I feel like has always been challenging. Like I remember measurement being challenging when I was on the print and TV side, because obviously there was really no way to measure that. And then, you know, when digital came, I think we thought, okay, well at least this will be more measurable. But then a whole new set of challenges came with that, particularly in my work on the entertainment brands, measurement was really, really challenging, because when we were looking at like tune in, who’s tuning in live, there was really no way to attribute somebody seeing an ad to them going and tuning in, especially because a lot of the TV tune in measurement is still measured through Nielsen. And there’s really not, it’s probably changed a ton even since like I was working on it. But one of the challenges we always faced on the Pinterest side was trying to help educate our advertisers on, you know, the effectiveness of the content. I think when we moved to more of that streaming landscape, and we were actually able to see if somebody signed up for a streaming service, we were able to attribute more to the content that we were creating and the media that we were running. So I think that was really helpful. And I think at the same time, Pinterest really doubled down on creating performance solutions. So there was kind of a moment in time where the like platforms really perfected the product so that you could optimize towards performance versus, you know, when social first launched, everything was like awareness, upper funnel impressions. Did anybody see this? Then it became more of like, well, what was the action that they took? I think also when websites and brands started like adding pixels to sites that created a lot of really useful data. So I think we have definitely seen such like an evolution in measurement, but I still think there’s a long way to go, because now there’s all of the data privacy questions, which I think have also made measurement really challenging because a lot of the cookie data, and kind of things that are considered like your personal data are not available to brands. And so platforms might have that information, but they’re not necessarily able to pass it through to brands anymore. So I think in some ways, like I don’t think measurement’s ever gonna be solved, but I do think with pixels and links and tracking and things like that, we’re definitely in a better place than we were, you know, when a print ad came out and. The best we could do is look at the circulation of the magazine, and say, we probably got some percentage of these eyeballs looking at the print ad. 

[00:14:39] Dave Yovanno

I had to argue back in your Saatchi days, like, that was pre-internet for the most part. It was a much more simpler time. So it was very analog. It wasn’t very sophisticated tracking, but, you know, I think brands had some confidence in how they controlled essentially exposure, right? So, you’re running a national campaign. I know you worked on Oreos, for example, but that may have been in 360i actually when you were telling me that. But, you if you’re a running a national campaign, billboards, TV, the way you do it is just kind of like a target, just a certain like Dallas, Fort Worth area, for example, with an ad campaign. And then you start that on a Friday and then Monday, check your sales. If sales went up, it’s working. And then, you kind of do that nationally. It’s very hard to do that, obviously, in today’s day and age, just with the distributed nature of how content is consumed. 

[00:15:28] Sam Kimmel

I have a great anecdote on that note. I was just reminded. So when I worked on Aveeno, we ran the Jennifer Aniston, like we created that Jennifer Aniston content around Aveeno Positively Radiant. It was a face moisturizer. And we ran the commercial during, I think it was like the, it was the Oscars. We ran the commercial during the Oscars. And I think within 24 or 48 hours, the product had like sold out pretty much everywhere. And that, to your point, isn’t gonna happen today because not everybody’s gonna be watching the Oscars. A lot of people are gonna be streaming it. Some people will get the highlight on TikTok or YouTube or Snapchat. And I think we don’t get that kind of like instant gratification anymore for the most part with digital. It’s a lot more kind of looking at all the different inputs, and then trying to figure out like who gets credit for what part of the journey and the funnel. Whereas with the TV ad, it was pretty straightforward. Like we made this TV ad. We aired it. Everybody saw it. And then everybody went and bought the product. 

[00:16:29] Dave Yovanno

Yeah, yeah. I have to just call out that you’re a very humble person. And I have to imagine that people who are listening, when they hear about your tour of duty at Pinterest, and your tour duty at TikTok, the way you talk about it is a bit nonchalant and humble. But I’m sure there’s folks in the audience that are very curious as to what is it like working at these types of companies? Like any big takeaways or things that you might want to share with the audience about what it’s like. 

[00:16:59] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. It was really cool. I really feel very grateful for my time at both Pinterest and TikTok. Pinterest was just a dream job for me. I’ve been a Pinterest user since the beginning. I love the platform so much personally. I still use it every day. So when I got the opportunity to work there, it was such a pinch me moment. I couldn’t believe that I was getting to work at a place that I was so excited about. And I really couldn’t have had a better experience there. So I was there for about four, a little more than four years. And I joined the company before they went public. And I was there during the IPO, which I think has to go on my like vision board of the coolest moments that I ever got to experience. We all got to go down to the New York Stock Exchange when we rang the bell. And it was just such a cool moment to see this thing that I loved so much be welcomed into the world in a totally different way. And just, it was pre-pandemic. So. Getting to do all the cool social events. So just super grateful for my time. And then TikTok, obviously, TikTok is one of the most popular platforms and most popular apps I think to ever exist. So getting to kind of be part for a little bit of that journey, and get to work with all these amazing creators, and just get to be like in the center of culture was something so cool. And I really enjoyed and learned a lot working there too. 

[00:18:26] Dave Yovanno

Yeah, what an incredible experience. I love that. Thanks for sharing that. So if we’re gonna switch gears, and then, just focus on TikTok here for a minute before we let this part of the conversation go. Really curious on the creator side of the ecosystem. What did you discover creators care about most on a platform like TikTok? Just curious as to what those top three things were that you think that creators really wanted from the platform. Was it just social currency and just excitement and passion for some of the content or was it more than that? 

[00:18:59] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, it’s a great question. So the creator space on TikTok, I think is one of the most like fascinating things to have gotten to be a part of. To your point when the early days of TikTok, it was a lot of people making dance videos and things like that. And then it quickly evolved into most importantly, just a place where people were spending a lot of time. And because of how much time people were spending on TikTok, I remember learning that people spend like an hour and a half a day on the platform on average. So that’s like a full feature length film basically that people are spending on the platforms. So I think it’s pretty wild, and brands just saw it as an opportunity. They knew they had the undivided attention, and then the people who were really producing the best content on the platform were creators. So even if you look to the early days of creators, there wasn’t necessarily a formula. I would just say some content just really resonated. And, you know, over time, I think brands were smart to just start partnering with those creators, because when brands were making their traditional ad content, when they were going to their agencies and saying we wanna do a mini commercial, kind of what they had traditionally done on YouTube and a lot of other social platforms, it really wasn’t working on TikTok. I think people really didn’t wanna see that type of content. They didn’t want to see this polished kind of commercial content. And then going back to your question, what are three things that they always wanted? So there were a lot of things, but I would say creators, smart creators were always wanting more data. So they really enjoyed any sessions where we could kind of sit down with them and tell them what was working. So it was what’s working in their category. What’s working in the specific sub-vertical that they’re in and then kind of just educating them on what’s driving whatever the objective is. So if they were a creator, and they really just wanted to get awareness for brands they were working with, we were looking at what’s making people actually finish the video or something like that. If it was a conversion brand, especially when TikTok shops launched, there became a big focus on what’s actually gonna drive people to make a purchase. So I would say like the data. And understanding what’s really working. And I would also say just like new features since the platforms are kind of always evolving what the products are and what things are coming out. I think that creators always really wanted to know kind of like what was coming, and TikTok and all the other platforms host these really cool events. Like TikTok had one called TikTok World. Pinterest has one I think coming up soon called Pinterest Presents. And essentially their sessions where they talk about all the new features and products that are coming out. And I think that really helps creators kind of figure out like where they’re going next. So it’s not just about what’s working today, but it’s about like what can I get ahead of that I’m gonna need for future. 

[00:21:58] Dave Yovanno

But it seemed to me that what TikTok really cared about was just driving usage and time on the platform. And if we do that right, then the ad revenue will flow. Is that accurate? 

[00:22:09] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, no, it’s a great question. From what I could see and kind of what you’re describing and what I think TikTok has always done really well is focusing on the user experience. So I think to your point, they knew right away that creators were gonna be so critical to the success of the platform. And that means both in creators in their organic content and then also creators in their paid content. Because if all content on a platform is paid, you’re gonna lose your audience. So I think that any platform right now really needs to think about how they’re gonna keep the organic content fresh. So I really think there really is such an emphasis on how do you make the content super engaging, not just for creators. And I think a lot of the tools that the platforms have added, like TikTok has CapCut. I know there’s been a lot of great collaborations with Adobe and Canva and all of the different kind of like templates that exist. And I think a lot of that is in an effort to help users make better content as well. So that when you are seeing content on the platform, it is content that looks good and is in line with kind of trends and what people wanna see. 

[00:23:20] Speaker

If you’re enjoying this podcast and want to learn how partnerships can help your business, visit impact.com, the world’s leading partnership management platform. 

[00:23:30] Dave Yovanno

Yeah, very interesting. So if we were to fast forward to today, you’ve switched gears to working at a thriving media company that I find fascinating. So I was hoping to unpack Hello Sunshine, because honestly, it’s not just a media company, it seems like a mission. And was hoping that you might be able to share with our audience here a little bit more about the company, how it got started, what it stands for. 

[00:23:53] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, for sure. So Hello Sunshine, I think exactly like you said, is a real mission-driven company. And that was really what excited me most about coming to work here. So Reese Witherspoon founded the company around like 2016, 2017. And she had been an A-list Hollywood actress, but found that a lot of the roles and opportunities that were coming her way felt really one-dimensional, and didn’t feel like they were really giving women this like power that they really deserved. And so the company was kind of born out of this idea of kind of helping women celebrate women in film, TV, and all the other multitude of things that women are working on. And so today there are a bunch of brands that make up Hello Sunshine. So we have the film and TV production side of the business where we make shows like the morning show, which our next season is coming out, I think in like a week from now. So everybody watch it on Apple. And then we have Reese’s Book Club, which is a really, really awesome brand. Reese’s Book Club, each month Reese picks a book pick. And then we kind of promote the book. So it’s really driving people to read books written by women authors with women main characters. And that we’ve had over 110 book picks since that started. We’ve turned 80 or more of them into New York Times bestsellers. So huge impact on the book community and the reading space. And then recently we even launched a kind of new extension of Hello Sunshine called Sunnie. And it’s really focused on the Gen-Z audience, which I think is something that’s really important to our company. It’s really to Reese. The idea that if we’re gonna change the future for women, we need to kind of focus on the next generation and help give them the tools and empowerment so that they can be successful and really have a voice in the world. 

[00:25:43] Dave Yovanno

I think you may have left off a data point that I picked up in my research with you about just the size of the book club. Do you wanna? 

[00:25:49] Sam Kimmel

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s a huge book club. It’s the biggest book club that exists. We have 5.3 million followers as of today on social and newsletter, which is amazing. It’s mostly women. We do have some men, but it’s really amazing community. 

[00:26:06] Dave Yovanno

What I find interesting in you describing this business is it does seem to be the modern strategy for business. Right. How businesses get started, having a real mission, not like a made up mission, but there’s some real roots and authenticity to what Reese Witherspoon has started here. And I think that attracts a certain type of person, a certain kind of customer. What I’m building up to is how businesses monetize here. But what I find interesting, you made a point about the book club, largest book club on the internet, 5.3 million members, so I’m added, but you’re not monetizing that in any way. But what find interesting is the investment in community here. It sounds like partnerships are a big part of it. That’s your key role within the company, but across this very diversified portfolio within Hello Sunshine, could you just share a little bit, break down how you’re monetizing partnerships, how you’re doing some of the collaborations amongst them? 

[00:27:06] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, it’s a great question. So to your point on the book club, we don’t actually monetize the sale of books, and there’s not an actual membership. So it’s not like anybody’s paying us to be part of the bookclub. So where we do monetize is through brand partnerships and exactly kind of what you were hitting on. Brands really wanna tap into our community. That’s kind of the greatest thing that we offer is that we have this amazing community of people that wanna get together. They’re like-minded. They share the mission and the values that we share. And so brands really wanna align with that. And so through our brand partnerships, we’re always focused on what we can do that’s going to integrate a brand seamlessly, and that’s also gonna benefit our community. So one example of something really fabulous we did this summer, we worked with a hotel partner, and we created reading retreats. So we did three literary retreats this summer in really, really special locations, and we essentially brought an author, we brought some book talkers and members of the book community, the book creators. And then we had actual guests who just registered to attend. And I was at two out of the three of them, and I can say that it was the most special brand experience that I’ve ever been a part of. We were able to create these two day kind of like sessions. I don’t know what to call them. These two day retreats where we brought together these amazing women. We did have some men, there were husbands who came along with a couple of the guests. And we just got to read and talk about books, and hear from the author about the inspiration. We did bookish crafts. So that’s kind of a nod to my Pinterest days. We know that book themed crafts are trending on Pinterest, and people really, they’re not just reading to read. They’re reading because they really like the community aspect of reading, and really the feedback that we got from everybody who attended and the authors was that it was such a meaningful experience, and we’re already talking about how we can do this again next year. So that’s an example of how we collaborated with a brand. And really what we try to do is come up with these bespoke best in class partnerships that are focused on something that’s really telling the brand story plus our story in a way that rewards our community. 

[00:29:24] Dave Yovanno

I want to bring this full circle just reflecting on where this conversation started. Now what you’re describing is a very different engagement with brands essentially. And so the key question that I think is on my mind, I’m sure on a lot of brands’ mind as you describe this is what you are describing scalable in terms of how brands can invest to get their products, you mentioned your hotel collaboration, I think you’ve done events with wine companies, Asian companies, is it scalable, especially relative to other experiences that you’ve had in your career. 

[00:30:05] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, it’s a great question. So as far as is it scalable, I would say that there are parts that are very scalable. So one example is we host an event every October. So it’s coming up next month. It’s called Shine Away. It’s a huge event that we do in LA. We have about 1800 consumers that attend, and it’s our opportunity to kind of tell the story of all the Hello Sunshine brands in one place. So through something like that, we have the scale of a large audience, and then we’re using our social platforms which have massive followers, 10 million on the home edit, 5.3 million on Reese’s book club and then several additional million on Hello Sunshine. So through the social and kind of newsletter communities that we have, we are able to take what we’re doing. So even if we are creating like an IRL experience that can’t fit, you know, millions of people, we are scaling the content and making sure that everything we’re doing has a really great digital footprint. So that even if you can’t attend with us, you can still feel like you’re part of the experience. And I would just say, I can’t disclose a ton about this but we do have some plans that are in the works that you’ll be seeing soon which are really focused on helping us create more digital class. 

[00:31:28] Dave Yovanno

I think you may have just touched on this a little bit, but how would you summarize what a good partnership looks like for you then? Like the signals that it’s working, how you’re setting up commercial terms, even measuring across these different formats content and then it’s podcasts, that sort of thing. How would you describe that or summarize that? 

[00:31:47] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, so I would say we know our community so well. Like we have such an amazing team at Hello Sunshine that really know what kind of content is gonna resonate with our community. So I love that we get real-time feedback. If we post something we know pretty quickly is the audience liking it? Are they, what feedback do they have? So I would like content performance is always gonna be really important. Obviously paid media plays a role in how content performs now in terms of like impressions and reach. But just seeing how the community is engaging. And I would say if it’s like an IRL event, like the activation that we did with the hotel partner, seeing that so many people have went and done research about how they can kind of come on a future retreat, that’s an indicator to us that we do something really well because that’s another one. We didn’t have a ton of people that could actually attend since it was three pop-up retreats over the summer but we were able to scale it through the social and the content and there was a lot of press around it. So seeing the response that the brand has seen just in terms of people that have looked into booking similar retreats, and people that’ve commented, and asked us to kind of alert them when future retreats are coming. Things like that really are indicators for us that what we are doing is working. The most successful partnerships are the ones where the audience really gets value out of it. And I think I learned this from my Saatchi days, from my 360i days, from Pinterest, from TikTok, and what I’m doing now is that everything we’re doing has to be about the audience. If the audience doesn’t care and they’re not paying attention to what we’re going then we’re just wasting time and money. So ultimately I think how we decide if a partner or how we evaluate if a partnership is successful. I think we look at how did our audience feel about it and did it move the needle on whatever the brand metric is. Like did people discover a new show or a new movie or a book that they maybe otherwise didn’t know about? Was there an event? And then did people attend the event? If there’s something that we want the community to do, I think it’s really just looking at what kind of response we’re getting. And in today’s world, in the TV days, it’s very one-sided. It’s like you put your ad out, and then you kind of hope the product sells. But today we get real time feedback. So every post you put up on social, you’re gonna get comments, you’re going to get messages. So we really get that luxury and privilege to be able to engage in a dialog with the audience, which I think ultimately gives us the feedback we need to kind of be better, and make sure that whatever we’re putting forward for our community is really gonna be in line with what they care about and what they want. 

[00:34:26] Dave Yovanno

Yeah, I don’t know if you would agree but my observation is that the workflows today and what you’re describing and what’s becoming more popular is what I would describe as more of like an earned media sort of workflow. Obviously they’re paying for access to the distribution channels that you have. But the workflow to me is more of an earned media workflow versus like a paid media workflow. Put a dollar in, get a click back. Put a million dollars in, get a million clicks back. This is a bit of an investment. What I’m saying is that brands want to invest in other brands like Hello Sunshine for more than just a churn and burn campaign that lasts 30 days, right? I have to imagine that these collaborations and brand partnerships that you’re working on may last even years. You want that to pay off, and so the ROI should be measured over more of an extended period of time, certainly beyond 30 days. Would you agree with that? 

[00:35:17] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, definitely. I think as a person working in partnerships for the past 15 years, I think now more than ever, there’s so many different options that brands can work with. So if they’re working with creators, there’s the billion creators so you could always go work with someone else. But when you have those kind of ongoing relationships, you’re able to build such a more authentic, deeper relationship where you learn how to work with each other. So the creator or in our case, like Hello Sunshine knows how to work better with brands, because we get to know the people that are leading those brands, and then we also get to understand how our audience reacts so we can kind of co-create, and I think that’s so important today. And having that continuity and being able to build a real authentic relationship really does pay dividends. Like, you’re saying, I think the ROI is much greater when you have a year-long collaboration versus a one-off social campaign. I think one-offs social campaigns can be really forgettable. And I think they get kind of buried under so much other noise. But when you have brands that are really showing up together authentically, I think it’s a lot more memorable, and then you’re able to really kind of like grow and scale the relationship exponentially. The other thing I was gonna say, when you were talking about the earned media piece, it made me think about how shares are probably one of the most significant current ways that we evaluate the success of something, so that obviously is always evolving and it varies based on the platform. But if somebody sees your content, and they like it, that’s the lowest level of effort. If they comment, they’re really putting a little bit more effort. If they share it, they wanna be associated with that content so the fact that every person now has the opportunity to share what they’re relating to I think is a really great indicator to brands and to just like the world what you care about and what you wanna align with. 

[00:37:14] Dave Yovanno

That’s a great point. It’s basically, there’s multiple levels to what you just said, because I look at back to the collaboration that we’re talking about here, it’s more like earned media. It takes time to get to know each other and make that investment. So your hotel collaboration with Hello Sunshine, I have to imagine that part of what that travel company, that hotel company is investing in is associating the Hello Sunshine brand and values with their own. And it takes time to assimilate. It takes time that like draw that association. But clearly they’ve done some work and say, look, this is Hello Sunshine. The community that they’re tapping into, we want that association. There are attributes about their values and what they stand for, we want to be associated with that. And I love what you just said about then translating that to the end consumer, right? When somebody likes something, the consumer is picking up that same shared value and attribute. Love that concept. All right, I want to go back to a specific point that you made several times about in-person events in real life. We’re definitely noticing a shift in what it seems the modern consumer wants, strong preference towards IRL experiences. What role does this experiential marketing play in building long-term brand equity? And what I find interesting is that people show up for brands. I want to hear how they’re showing up for, you know, Hello Sunshine event. They won’t show up for the employer, but they’ll show up for Reese Witherspoon. I love it. 

[00:38:41] Sam Kimmel

I think that the COVID moment, we got, you know, we were all inside for so long and then we got excited to get out into the real world. But I feel like it’s gone deeper than that now. I attended our Shine Away event last year for the first time, and getting to see it in real life, and the feedback that I got in the room from people who were there was that it was such a meaningful, special event. And that they love being part of the Hello Sunshine community. And I think it’s just women feel seen and heard and they feel connected. And so I think for us, the way we look at the experiential, we look it as an extension of what we’re already doing. So we see it as opportunity to take the parts of our brand that are working really well, the parts that encourage community, the parts that make women feel seen and represented and kind of bringing them together and celebrating women of all different backgrounds and different ages, different hobbies, I think has been something that’s really special, and I think we just get such value out of it. The audience gets tremendous value out it. So really just seeing how our community shows up really halos to the brands that work with us. So like you said, one of main reasons I think brands are work with us because they’re really aligned to our values, but they also just see how amazing our community is. And so being kind of at one of these events with us and kind of showing up as a brand in partnership with Hello Sunshine has this like magnified kind of amplification where the brand really gets a lot of the benefits of just kind of being part of this amazing community. 

[00:40:23] Dave Yovanno

Yeah, that’s very powerful honestly what you just said. And I see that as like tapping into kind of the core human spirit, honestly. It’s like purpose is really what you’re unlocking there. And it just seems with all the sharing that happens online, people are getting further and further away from community. So with you being true community like that authentic purpose and connection and I think you tapping into that and unlocking that is very inspiring. So, I’m really glad that you shared that. Winding towards the end here of our conversation, you mentioned previously that creators platforms are always wanting to know what’s coming next. So I just wanted to ask you towards the into our conversation here, what excites you most about the future of partnerships? What trends are you anticipating? What do you see going on? 

[00:41:15] Sam Kimmel

That is a wonderful question. I have no idea where the next 15 years is gonna take us, but I do feel like what I’ve seen personally that excites me is that the consumer is really at the center more than ever. I think when we had the early days of print and TV, we didn’t really get the consumer feedback. So we didn’t really know what the kind of consumer was wanting or needing from us, whereas now we have so much feedback and there’s so much dialog that we really do have a good understanding of what the consumer is enjoying and what they’re not enjoying, and they’re very vocal about it. So I feel like that gives all of us in the partnership space a really cool opportunity to continue to like learn and just take all these data inputs we’re getting, the shares, the comments, when we host events like doing surveys, and just kind of understanding from people what do they want from us, so that we can do more of that co-creation. I think seeing co-creation between creators and brands has been so special. You see a lot of creators are developing their own brands or they’re working with brands to develop their own extensions. And there’s just like a world that’s happening right now where we really are listening to consumer feedback across the board. So I don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen but I’m really excited to continue to see how consumers are gonna help us create and build brands so that we’re putting out a product, whether it’s like content or experiences or actual physical products that are really in line with what people want. And I just think we’re getting closer to that, and really excited to see how that continues to evolve. 

[00:42:58] Dave Yovanno

Brands have to embrace this paradigm shift that has happened, like coming from your Saatchi days where they were the ones doing all the talking. They have to embraced the fact that to your point, consumers are the ones that are in the driver’s seat now. You gotta be okay with them doing the talking, right? I think it’s probably the hardest shift that brands are making. And so I think it’s just an incredibly fun industry honestly to work in, and you’re like right in the thick of it which sounds like a lot of fun for yourself. So maybe I just end on that point with the question to you. I mean, you seem like a very purpose driven individual mission driven individual, but I gotta ask what’s a moment new or in the past that reminds you of why you do this work? 

[00:43:41] Sam Kimmel

I think on the Hello Sunshine side, one of the most rewarding things has been getting to work with the authors. So every month, you know, Reese picks a book pick, and a lot of times it’s authors who are not super well known. And essentially when they get the call that they’ve been selected as a Reese’s book club pick, it’s a life changing moment. So I get to spend a lot of time with the author. And what I hear from them is just how being part of Reese’s book club has utterly changed their lives. It, you know, financially changed their lives. It unlocked lots of new opportunities for them. It gave them a new community in our community cause we have 5 million people. So, you know, if you’re an author, and then you’re part of our world, you’re getting access to this community that you might have otherwise never had access to. So for me, it’s getting to know the authors getting to work with them. We also have this fellowship program which I think is maybe the coolest thing that we do. It is about helping get diverse women and non-binary individuals into publishing, since it is a really tricky space to navigate. We’ve done this mentorship program for a few years now, and we have these fellows who go through the program, and they get mentored, and we actually had two of them as our book picks this year. So being able to see them kind of come full circle. As, you know, these young aspiring authors getting to kind of go through this program and then end up not only published. But as part of Reese’s Book Club book picks, seeing their, like seeing how much of an impact we can have on the author community is something that’s really inspiring and really makes me proud to be part of Hello Sunshine and Reese’s Book Club. 

[00:45:28] Dave Yovanno

I love it. Sam, what an incredible conversation today. Thank you so much for so many great insights. I know I learned a lot. Really appreciate you joining us today. 

[00:45:39] Sam Kimmel

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I love this. I feel like we could go on for another two hours, but thank you again. And yeah, I appreciate it. 

[00:45:48] Dave Yovanno

I was really impressed by my conversation with Sam. There were so many takeaways, but a few highlights stood out to me. First, the evolution of advertising formats. We’ve gone from the days of splashy TV ads and glossy print spreads to social first campaigns in a creator powered model that drives awareness and acquisition. It’s a reminder that the way we tell stories has to keep changing alongside how people consume them. Second, the power of community-driven partnerships. Hello Sunshine is showing what it looks like to turn online engagement into something deeper and more lasting. Whether it’s a book retreat or their shine away event, they’ve proven that when you create space for people to connect in real life, you move beyond marketing and into something truly meaningful. And third, the importance of a long-term mindset for partnerships. Success isn’t about one-off posts or vanity measures. It’s about signals that show real impact, shares, community engagement, and the ability to repurpose content across channels over time. That perspective builds real equity for brands in the long run. This episode was a great opportunity to rethink measurement, embrace partners as collaborators, and put community at the center of everything that we do. A huge thank you to Sam for sharing her experiences, and thank you for listening. We’ll see you on the next season of the Partnership Economy podcast.